Post by WhoseYerLilith on Aug 17, 2004 5:33:22 GMT -5
Ok, I have a little bit of time before work to share some of my thoughts. The deck is a solid one, but I personally see a number of flaws in it (what deck doesn't have them?) that don't seem to be addressed.
1- While reading the essay, I notice that the main points and the targets of the deck seem to shift, as well as who this deck is best used against and who its been played against and finally the number of creatures seems to change, that may just be a side effect from so much typing so late at night, so Ill let that one be.
2- Defense against decoys. This has been analyzed and discussed a great deal already. What I took issue with was this:
"and we all know how many CPU folk use this lil bugger to take some of our most beloved monsters out of the game before we get to lvl up the land to nullify this"
I don't think they do: Lets go from story mode: Ryvern doesn't play with a Decoy at least till Cratos 3, maybe even later. Selena doesn't play with a decoy, neither does Zagol,Leo,Luthien, Pickett, nor Ahdla, Morroc does, Whirlwind doesn't, Mullyn doesn't, Gamygin doesn't, Zenneth does, and even still he's completely optional- Najaran does as well, but she's even more optional, and I can't remember if Balberit does- though I'm leaning towards the negatory. I know it'll pop up from time to time in the versus mode but in all frankness, most (defined as more than half) do not utilize a decoy.
3- This deck has no protection whatsoever against Magic Based Decks- something that most players tend to lean towards as they build up their card libraries and slowly gravitate to a 40-20-40 deck. According to you, three of your biggest strategies of this deck are to:
1- Drop low cost neutral creatures, then cast Telegnosis to swap them out for the proper colored ones.
2- Protect them all with Mass Phantasm to prevent spell damage.
3- Take over enemies territorries using Telekinesis.
I notice you only have 2 of each of the respective spell cardsbasing a large aspect of your deck strategy on 6/50 cards.
Now, this is how simple the basic strategy of your deck can be taken apart:
First the creature dropping and swapping-: All someone would need is a Suppression, Mesmorize, Shatter or Ruin to destroy that strategy (the latter three cut your chances from 2/50 to 1/50), forcing you to be unable to drop any of your red and green creatures unless you are lucky enough to land on a fort or castle in which case you'll begin falling behind as your wasting turns and money swapping creatures when you could be simply levelling up lands or building chains. Computer opponents rarely utilize these spells, but all human opponents I know who make solid decks always include a Suppression or a Mesmorize and Shatter is never a bad choice.
Second- Protecting your creatures with Mass Phantasm is a good idea, and if the spell survives the Ruin, Shatter and Suppression, its effects can easily be undone with Erasure, Archbishop, Astral Queen, Hyde, Spitting Cobra, Peace, Fog, Binding Mist, Barrow Wight, or any of many other effect spells that your deck seems to lack protection against.
And finally- utilizing Telekinesis to take over enemies high level lands is a great and fun tactic, assuming they don't have proper protection (once again, I see no strategies other than the thinking you've somehow covered all the bases with three black orbs and three vorpal swords...Rust anyone? Especially in light of the fact that many of my Culdcept-playing acquaintances AND CPU players include both Counter/Neutralize defense tools as WELL AS HP-Building Armor), but once again you only have two listed and once again Mesmorize, Suppression, Shatter and Ruin can easily demolish them, making you wait until a reshuffle to gain the cards in which you put such a huge emphasis on your strategies. Additionally, you have no account for creatures who are on high level territories who can't be targeted or who are next to a building and another creature or chain of creatures. And furthermore, your strategies counteract themselves since once you move one of your creatures, the Phantasm effect is lost. (Unless you solely use Telekinesis to move their creatures to you in which case I see you able to do it twice per every 50 turns or so, assuming both spells survive.)
4- I covered the living items already, I don't see a need to rehash it. I've played these items over and over again and utilized them if different ways and they've been pretty much useless to me everytime. I know Culdcept well enough to know that every card has a use if properly strategized. Utilizing them as land "holders" to swap out is a decent idea, especially in light that they double as items, and this strategy is one I've done many many many times already and find other creatures to be more valuable in that regard though your point that they can double as items is taken. (but once again- the stat increase is average, slightly more so since any other creature can use them but its still decent at best). So they make less than average land holders and average items, plus they're very easily taken care of with Tetramorph (I always play with one), Magic Bolt (Yes, I will cast it on a second turn if opponent plays a Living Sword or Living Spear since I assume its for the purpose of land requirements) and Banishing Ray.
5- Old Willow and Kelpie, once again the target seems to shift from CPU to human since I've only seen Mullyn and Gamygin play with a Kelpie and an Old Willow respectively and I don't know about you, but in every game I've ever played the Old Willow/Kelpie NEVER survives more than a few rounds because it instantly becomes the common enemy. Your basic way of handling it is acceptable, though I prefer a Binding Mist or a Hyde myself. And Im still waiting for an explanation that an all red deck that utilizes items is a flawed deck.
6- I happen to be a "wierdo" that utilizes idols. I take your comments regarding idols to mean that your not too advanced of a player since some of my higher based strategies incorporate the sometime use of idols- what you say can also be taken as ignorant as I see at least 4 or 5 of the idols actually helping your deck and its listed strategies.
7- I think it's really funny that you have a card that is "safe to throw out" (Relief), why put in a card if it's sole purpose is to be safely thrown out since you have a spare? Doesn't make much sense to me...
8- I guess you haven't played many human opponents as a wide variey of the ones I've played have utilized Defense Decks ( to devastating effects)
9- In response to your comment that people tend to not post over lengthy strategies when they post their decks...well..that's because there is a number of seasoned players here who know all the cards and the inherent strategies, since there are only 400 something cards and only 3 catergories- so it's a basic assumption that when you post a deck, you don't need a huge strategy accompaniment unless you've stumbled on something really new or subtle. Most of the posters here will post their deck, something to effect of a general strategy and a success rate which is always pleasant to read, then other posters reply with comments on how to improve according to their personal opinion and experiences as well as picking up on good ideas. I also really don't see why this would belong in the Culdscience institute as it's just a really lengthy description of a basic First Attack deck with some minor idiosyncrosies.
Finishing up, I once again reiterate that this deck is a pretty solid one but I've seen decks like this fail over and over again and I personally have made decks that far destroyed my First Attack decks that have almost the exact same listings with minor changes.
If I were playing with this deck, I'd lose the Mass Phantasms as no CPU plays Mass-Destruction decks and human opponents who do utilize defensive measures anyway. Id reduce the Black Orb count and include a Rust or two as well as a Barrier to protect your deck from magic onslaught. I also think the one of the strongest things you could do would be to include one or two Conjurers-Since your deck relies on Telekinesis, one of the easiest ways to acquire levelled up lands is to simply move the creature out of the way then use the Conjurer to summon Ba'Al on the levelled up square This awesome 50 50 creature (which also has first attack) can definitely hold his own until swapping for a matching colored creature (using one of the Reliefs or Telegnosis). The Conjurer is easy to summon and can also be used as a land requirement, granted, he makes an easy target, but no more so then the Living Items and look what you get in exchange....just my thoughts.
1- While reading the essay, I notice that the main points and the targets of the deck seem to shift, as well as who this deck is best used against and who its been played against and finally the number of creatures seems to change, that may just be a side effect from so much typing so late at night, so Ill let that one be.
2- Defense against decoys. This has been analyzed and discussed a great deal already. What I took issue with was this:
"and we all know how many CPU folk use this lil bugger to take some of our most beloved monsters out of the game before we get to lvl up the land to nullify this"
I don't think they do: Lets go from story mode: Ryvern doesn't play with a Decoy at least till Cratos 3, maybe even later. Selena doesn't play with a decoy, neither does Zagol,Leo,Luthien, Pickett, nor Ahdla, Morroc does, Whirlwind doesn't, Mullyn doesn't, Gamygin doesn't, Zenneth does, and even still he's completely optional- Najaran does as well, but she's even more optional, and I can't remember if Balberit does- though I'm leaning towards the negatory. I know it'll pop up from time to time in the versus mode but in all frankness, most (defined as more than half) do not utilize a decoy.
3- This deck has no protection whatsoever against Magic Based Decks- something that most players tend to lean towards as they build up their card libraries and slowly gravitate to a 40-20-40 deck. According to you, three of your biggest strategies of this deck are to:
1- Drop low cost neutral creatures, then cast Telegnosis to swap them out for the proper colored ones.
2- Protect them all with Mass Phantasm to prevent spell damage.
3- Take over enemies territorries using Telekinesis.
I notice you only have 2 of each of the respective spell cardsbasing a large aspect of your deck strategy on 6/50 cards.
Now, this is how simple the basic strategy of your deck can be taken apart:
First the creature dropping and swapping-: All someone would need is a Suppression, Mesmorize, Shatter or Ruin to destroy that strategy (the latter three cut your chances from 2/50 to 1/50), forcing you to be unable to drop any of your red and green creatures unless you are lucky enough to land on a fort or castle in which case you'll begin falling behind as your wasting turns and money swapping creatures when you could be simply levelling up lands or building chains. Computer opponents rarely utilize these spells, but all human opponents I know who make solid decks always include a Suppression or a Mesmorize and Shatter is never a bad choice.
Second- Protecting your creatures with Mass Phantasm is a good idea, and if the spell survives the Ruin, Shatter and Suppression, its effects can easily be undone with Erasure, Archbishop, Astral Queen, Hyde, Spitting Cobra, Peace, Fog, Binding Mist, Barrow Wight, or any of many other effect spells that your deck seems to lack protection against.
And finally- utilizing Telekinesis to take over enemies high level lands is a great and fun tactic, assuming they don't have proper protection (once again, I see no strategies other than the thinking you've somehow covered all the bases with three black orbs and three vorpal swords...Rust anyone? Especially in light of the fact that many of my Culdcept-playing acquaintances AND CPU players include both Counter/Neutralize defense tools as WELL AS HP-Building Armor), but once again you only have two listed and once again Mesmorize, Suppression, Shatter and Ruin can easily demolish them, making you wait until a reshuffle to gain the cards in which you put such a huge emphasis on your strategies. Additionally, you have no account for creatures who are on high level territories who can't be targeted or who are next to a building and another creature or chain of creatures. And furthermore, your strategies counteract themselves since once you move one of your creatures, the Phantasm effect is lost. (Unless you solely use Telekinesis to move their creatures to you in which case I see you able to do it twice per every 50 turns or so, assuming both spells survive.)
4- I covered the living items already, I don't see a need to rehash it. I've played these items over and over again and utilized them if different ways and they've been pretty much useless to me everytime. I know Culdcept well enough to know that every card has a use if properly strategized. Utilizing them as land "holders" to swap out is a decent idea, especially in light that they double as items, and this strategy is one I've done many many many times already and find other creatures to be more valuable in that regard though your point that they can double as items is taken. (but once again- the stat increase is average, slightly more so since any other creature can use them but its still decent at best). So they make less than average land holders and average items, plus they're very easily taken care of with Tetramorph (I always play with one), Magic Bolt (Yes, I will cast it on a second turn if opponent plays a Living Sword or Living Spear since I assume its for the purpose of land requirements) and Banishing Ray.
5- Old Willow and Kelpie, once again the target seems to shift from CPU to human since I've only seen Mullyn and Gamygin play with a Kelpie and an Old Willow respectively and I don't know about you, but in every game I've ever played the Old Willow/Kelpie NEVER survives more than a few rounds because it instantly becomes the common enemy. Your basic way of handling it is acceptable, though I prefer a Binding Mist or a Hyde myself. And Im still waiting for an explanation that an all red deck that utilizes items is a flawed deck.
6- I happen to be a "wierdo" that utilizes idols. I take your comments regarding idols to mean that your not too advanced of a player since some of my higher based strategies incorporate the sometime use of idols- what you say can also be taken as ignorant as I see at least 4 or 5 of the idols actually helping your deck and its listed strategies.
7- I think it's really funny that you have a card that is "safe to throw out" (Relief), why put in a card if it's sole purpose is to be safely thrown out since you have a spare? Doesn't make much sense to me...
8- I guess you haven't played many human opponents as a wide variey of the ones I've played have utilized Defense Decks ( to devastating effects)
9- In response to your comment that people tend to not post over lengthy strategies when they post their decks...well..that's because there is a number of seasoned players here who know all the cards and the inherent strategies, since there are only 400 something cards and only 3 catergories- so it's a basic assumption that when you post a deck, you don't need a huge strategy accompaniment unless you've stumbled on something really new or subtle. Most of the posters here will post their deck, something to effect of a general strategy and a success rate which is always pleasant to read, then other posters reply with comments on how to improve according to their personal opinion and experiences as well as picking up on good ideas. I also really don't see why this would belong in the Culdscience institute as it's just a really lengthy description of a basic First Attack deck with some minor idiosyncrosies.
Finishing up, I once again reiterate that this deck is a pretty solid one but I've seen decks like this fail over and over again and I personally have made decks that far destroyed my First Attack decks that have almost the exact same listings with minor changes.
If I were playing with this deck, I'd lose the Mass Phantasms as no CPU plays Mass-Destruction decks and human opponents who do utilize defensive measures anyway. Id reduce the Black Orb count and include a Rust or two as well as a Barrier to protect your deck from magic onslaught. I also think the one of the strongest things you could do would be to include one or two Conjurers-Since your deck relies on Telekinesis, one of the easiest ways to acquire levelled up lands is to simply move the creature out of the way then use the Conjurer to summon Ba'Al on the levelled up square This awesome 50 50 creature (which also has first attack) can definitely hold his own until swapping for a matching colored creature (using one of the Reliefs or Telegnosis). The Conjurer is easy to summon and can also be used as a land requirement, granted, he makes an easy target, but no more so then the Living Items and look what you get in exchange....just my thoughts.
